Las Vegas Sands (NYSE:LVS) reported first-quarter financial results on Wednesday. The transcript from the company's first-quarter earnings call has been provided below.
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The full earnings call is available at https://events.q4inc.com/attendee/941358049
Summary
Las Vegas Sands reported a strong financial performance with EBITDA at Marina Bay Sands increasing by over 30% to $788 million, and Macau's EBITDA growing by 18% to $633 million.
The company emphasized its strategic focus on enhancing customer experiences through investments in service, product, and people, particularly in Singapore and Macau.
Las Vegas Sands aims to reach $700 million in quarterly EBITDA in Macau by investing in luxury suites, service improvements, and leveraging its scale advantages.
The company repurchased $740 million of its stock and paid a recurring dividend, with plans for continued share buybacks to enhance shareholder returns.
Management expressed optimism about growth opportunities, citing favorable market conditions in Singapore and Macau, and the upcoming introduction of IR2 in Singapore to cater to high-end tourists.
Full Transcript
OPERATOR
Good day ladies and gentlemen and welcome to the Sands' first quarter 2026 earnings call. At this time, all participants have been placed on a listen-only mode. We will open the floor for your questions and comments following the presentation. It is now my pleasure to turn the floor over to Mr. Daniel Briggs, senior vice president of investor relations at SANS. Sir, the floor is yours.
Daniel Briggs (Senior Vice President of Investor Relations)
Thank you. Joining the call today are Patrick Dumont, our Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Dr. Wilford Wong, Executive Vice Chairman of Sands China, and Grant Chung, CEO and President of Sands China and EVP of Asia Operations. Today's conference call will contain forward looking statements. We will be making those statements under the safe harbor provision of Federal securities laws. The language on forward looking statements included in our press release also applies to our comments made on the call today. The company's actual results may differ materially from the results reflected in those forward looking statements. In addition, we will discuss non-GAAP measures. Reconciliations to the most comparable GAAP financial measure are included in our press release. We have posted an earnings presentation on our website. We will refer to that presentation during the call. Finally, for the Q&A session, we ask those with interest to please post one question and one follow up so we might allow everyone with interest the opportunity to participate. This presentation is being recorded. I'll now turn the call over to Patrick.
Patrick Dumont (Chairman and Chief Executive Officer)
Thanks Dan. Good afternoon. Thank you for joining the call. As we look to the future, we couldn't be more enthusiastic about the opportunities for our company. Our strategic priorities remain clear and consistent with the goals of investing with discipline and creating meaningful shareholder returns. Turning to our current quarter results, we once again delivered outstanding financial results at Marina Bay Sands in Singapore. With EBITDA increasing over 30% to reach $788 million. Singapore is an ideal market for high value tourism spending and our focus on creating unique and memorable entertainment and hospitality experiences for our guests has been a tremendous success. The company's fundamental operating strategy relies on three critical pillars, our people, our product and our service. When we get these three pillars optimized, we can create outstanding financial and operating performance. We are seeing that at Marina Bay Sands today and we couldn't be more enthusiastic about our additional opportunities for growth in Singapore as we continue to enhance the customer experience for our guests in the years ahead. Turning to Macao, we delivered 633 million in EBITDA for the quarter, an increase of over 18%. Mass market revenue share reached 25.7% for this quarter, our strongest performance since the first quarter of 2024. As in Singapore, the operating pillars of people, product and service underpin our strategy to deliver growth in Macao. We believe we will deliver growth over time in Macao as we implement specific strategies to improve both our products and our service levels. We have a goal of reaching 700 million in quarterly EBITDA and beyond over time as we fully implement our investment and operating strategies and as the Macao market continues to grow. Today, the growth in the Macao market is primarily driven by the premium segment. The competition in that segment remains intense and luxurious suite product coupled with outstanding service levels are critical to success. We have the suite product to effectively compete in the premium segment at both Londoner and Grand Suites of the Four Seasons. We are singularly focused today on matching that suite and room product with the service levels at the most discerning and valuable customers and Macao increasingly demand we are making progress. We have meaningfully increased our gaming revenues, gaming volumes and premium customer patronage since implementing the recent changes to our reinvestment programs. Implementing meaningful improvements in the service pillar of our strategy in Macao will be critical to realizing additional growth and securing our long term success. We believe we have outstanding opportunities for growth in every segment as we implement our strategies. Accordingly, we will be making targeted investments and training and hiring of additional customer focused team members throughout the portfolio. Creating and delivering unique and memorable hospitality experiences is the centerpiece of our strategy and improving service levels in Macao is critical to the achievement of our long term financial and operating objectives. In addition, we plan to introduce refreshed and luxurious room and suite products throughout the portfolio as we further execute the pillar of our the product pillar of our strategy. We are focused on the highest return projects to increase cash flow over the next three years. We will begin with the Venetian or work is already in progress with refreshed room product beginning to come into service in the third quarter of 2026. Additional luxurious suite product and a total product refresh is targeted to be completed by the end of 2027. The meaningful patron growth we have seen in the Londoner and Grand Suites of the Four Seasons provides support for these investments. It's important to note that the work we envision will not create significant disruption throughout the portfolio. The scale of our portfolio will allow us to serve customers in other properties and elsewhere in each resort while work is in progress. Nothing we are doing as we invest in the portfolio over the next several years will hinder our ability to use our scale advantages to outperform the non premium segment should spending in that segment accelerate in the future. We are confident in our strategy in Macao and we look forward to updating you on our progress as we execute our plans. Let's move forward to provide some additional detail on our current quarter financial performance. Macao EBITDA was 633 million if we had held as expected in our rolling program, our EBITDA would have been lower by 15 million. When adjusted for higher than expected hold in the rolling segment, our EBITDA margin for the Macao portfolio of properties would have been 29.6% or down 200 basis points compared to the first quarter of 2025. Our principal focus in 2026 is to deliver revenue and cash flow growth across the portfolio. Our investments in improving service offerings will naturally increase expenses which will continue to negatively impact margins as we implement our strategy. We do expect margins to improve over time as we grow revenue in the lower end of the premium segment and and in the non premium segment where the scale of our hotel inventory gives us natural advantages as we improve our service levels and further refine our reinvestment strategies. Margin for the quarter at the Venetian was 33.5% while margin at the Londoner was 29.6%. We expect growth in EBITDA as revenues grow. We will use our scale and product advantages together with service level improvements and targeted incentives to effectively compete in every market segment in Singapore. Marina Bay Sands EBITDA for The quarter was 788 million at a margin of 53%. If we had held as expected in our rolling program, our EBITDA would have been higher by $6 million. The outstanding financial and operating results at MBS reflect the impact of high quality investment in market leading product, world class service and the growth in high value tourism. Turning to our program to return capital to shareholders, we repurchased 740 million of LVS stock during the quarter. We also paid our recurring quarterly dividend of $0.30 per share. We have now purchased 14.3% of the company's outstanding shares over the last 10 quarters and we believe additional repurchases of LVS equity through our share repurchase program will be meaningfully accretive to the company and its shareholders over the long term. While we did not purchase any shares of SEL during the quarter, we do continue to see value in both the LVS and SEL names. The company's ownership of sel remained at 74.8% as of March 31, 2026. Look forward to continuing to utilize the company's share repurchase program to increase returns to shareholders. Thanks again for joining the call today and for your interest in the company. Now, let's take some questions.
OPERATOR
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, the floor is now open for questions. If you would like to enter the queue. To ask a question, please press star-1 on your telephone keypad. Now, if listening on speaker phone today, please pick up your handset to provide optimum sound quality. Also, we ask that each participant limit themselves to one question and one follow up. Please hold a moment, please, while we poll for questions. And the first question today is coming from Dan Pulitzer from J.P. Dan, your line is live.
Dan Pulitzer (Equity Analyst at J.P. Morgan)
Hey, good afternoon everyone and thanks for taking my questions. Singapore, it's gone from strength to strength to strength. I think you had $18 billion of rolling chips in the quarter. I guess how do you think about what's driving this? I mean it's just kind of the astronomical levels here. And to what extent are you seeing any benefit from some of the things kind of evolving the geopolitical landscape that may be hitting other regions and possibly benefiting Singapore.
Patrick Dumont (Chairman and Chief Executive Officer)
So there's a couple things about the Marina Bay sand growth story, which is really a story about investment. The more we invest in high quality asset, the better service levels we have, the more we're going to differentiate the product that we have and the more high value visitation we're going to get. Look, I think the VIP segment is just a very competitive segment across Asia. The fact that we're able to see success here with these very high value patrons is really just an example of the execution there at the property. I will tell you that our main driver profitability at Marina Bay Sands is mass winning slots. VIP is a very volatile segment and it can be concentrated at times it's high value customers and they can vary from quarter to quarter. What I will tell you is that with the introduction of IR 2, we will have more product to address this market and scale with it. But the one thing to note is that we had an outstanding quarter team, did a phenomenal job. But these quarters can be highly concentrated and can vary.
Dan Pulitzer (Equity Analyst at J.P. Morgan)
Thanks. And then just turning to Macau, you mentioned the goal to get back to that $700 million quarterly EBITDA level. Obviously it's going to require a little bit more investment. But in terms of the market growth that you have to get there, at what level do you have to see the overall market or mass grow? Or is that something you can get to or achieve independent of the market really accelerating here.
Patrick Dumont (Chairman and Chief Executive Officer)
Look, I think, I think we're heading in the right direction in Macao. I think you see the growth this quarter and you see that our focus on service, improving our product, we have some work to do there. Across the portfolio, as we mentioned, is starting to show some progress. And so in our mind that's a milestone that is achievable. Obviously it's going to require some growth in the overall market, but more importantly, it's going to require us to continue on the execution of hospitality and service that we're showing. Greg, do you have anything else to add?
Greg
First of all, the market continues to grow. We had 14% growth year on year this quarter and it's notable that we achieved significant revenue outperformance against each segment. So we gain share in every single segment both on a year, on year basis as well as sequentially. So we achieved the EBITDA growth as well as sequential margin improvement at the same time as we optimize our reinvestment levels.
Dan Pulitzer (Equity Analyst at J.P. Morgan)
Got it. Thanks so much.
OPERATOR
Thank you. The next question will be from Brandt Montour from Barclays. Brandt, your line is live.
Brandt Montour (Equity Analyst at Barclays)
Hi everybody. Thanks for taking my questions. So over in Singapore you have a slide that, you know, you show us the theoretical rolling hold and it, you know, I know that that's just a, just sort of a pure statistical output from, from betting mix. But you know, you do, you kind of do show it kind of curling over and, and sort of reverting back lower. I just want to make sure like, do you, are you guys seeing a change in betting behavior or any type of reversion away from side bets or the, you know, sort of long odds bets that you've talked about?
Patrick Dumont (Chairman and Chief Executive Officer)
Yeah, I appreciate the question. You know, the VIP business is very volatile and there's, there's an interesting occurrence in the way patrons play now, which is some customers who are high end VIP customers on rolling programs play traditional bets and they bet in a much more traditional, conservative way. And then we have other patrons who really enjoy the volatility and the side bets that we present. And so when you have like on page 12, if you look at 3Q25 where we hit the peak of 4.2 with $9.1 billion in rolling volume, we had patrons in the building who really love those side bets. And so it drove the theoretical higher. In the case of this quarter with $18 billion of rolling volume, it was a barbell. We had people in the building who were betting the traditional bets. In a very conservative manner and rolling a lot of volume. And then on the other side we had some people who were really playing the side bets. And so the way we got to 3.6 was a more traditional VIP hold mixed with people were taking advantage of the side bets and having a more, let's call it, modern approach to the game. And so what you ended up was this 3.6, but it was not like an average of play. It really was a barbell.
Brandt Montour (Equity Analyst at Barclays)
Okay, that's really helpful. Thanks for that. And then a second question would be on would be on Macau. The base mass is not where most of the growth appears to be coming in the broader industry right now. And I'm just curious if you guys are starting to see any green shoots in that customer. Just given we've seen a little bit of better stock market and maybe some other green shoots in the macro, but just anything that you guys check or watching from what you sort of KPIs and things that you watch on the macro level that gives you any sort of confidence or incremental confidence in that segment.
Patrick Dumont (Chairman and Chief Executive Officer)
Thanks for the question. The market growth is driven by premium segments both in rolling and non rolling segments. But we can point to a couple of indicators to show that the base mass and the mass growth is actually solid. If you look at not so much the base mass tables, but the slot and Electronic Table Games (ETG) segment, we are seeing strong growth as a whole in the market and Sands China outperformed the market in that segment by significant margin this quarter. So our slot and Electronic Table Games (ETG) segment grew by 31% year on year and 10% sequentially. Especially driven by more mass orientated properties in Parisian and Sands where you can see the slot Electronic Table Games (ETG) number has grown tremendously. The second indicator is our retail business. We actually hit a quarterly all time high in tenant sales in this first quarter, which is an exceptional performance. Tenant sales grew by 37%. Yes, it was driven by the jewelry and watch sector, but the spending was very broad across all of our malls. And we also saw significant growth in the fashion segment as well. So from the slot segment from the retail mall, you can see that consumption is solid. But clearly for the ggr, the premium segments is still driving the majority of the growth. Excellent.
Brandt Montour (Equity Analyst at Barclays)
Thanks everyone.
OPERATOR
Thank you. The next question will be from Robin Farley from ubs. Robin, your line is live.
Robin Farley (Equity Analyst at UBS)
Great, thanks. Just circling back, Patrick, you were making comments about Singapore and you talked about both VIP and MAS and then you said something like IR2 will give us more product to address that. Were you suggesting that IR2 would be focusing on one or the other of those markets or did you just mean that broadly product to address the Singapore market? So I just want clarification on that and then I do have a follow up. Thanks.
Patrick Dumont (Chairman and Chief Executive Officer)
Yeah, no problem. Thanks for asking. A follow up on, on IR2. In our mind this will be the most luxurious and most highly amenities hotel in the world. And our intention is to set a new standard for luxury hospitality which will naturally attract very high end patrons, some of whom are gaming patrons on rolling programs. And so my comment around the volatility and concentrated nature of the VIP play that we see in Marina Bay Sands in our mind can be smoothed a little bit by having more inventory to bring in more of these very high value patrons. And so while IR2 will not be focused solely on VIP patrons, it's really going to be for all the high value tourists that we have coming into our, into our building. But it's really going to set a new standard and those types of customers tend to gravitate to those types of hospitality and amenities environments. It will also have an unbelievable entertainment component which we believe will also appeal to the highest value tourists that we have, highest value patrons we have coming into the building. So we hope that that gives us additional inventory and strength at the highest levels of patron rating.
Robin Farley (Equity Analyst at UBS)
Great. Helpful. Thank you. And just to follow up on Singapore in general, I don't know if you have any thoughts about how we should think about the two properties and what combined EBITDA might look like or incremental EBITDA from IR2. Any sort of. I know it's early, but big picture. Thanks.
Patrick Dumont (Chairman and Chief Executive Officer)
I think for us we're really looking to get our targeted return on invested capital across the total investment. So we've always said that we kind of target a 20% return. So that's kind of where we're trying to get to. And if you look at the productivity that we're seeing out of our highest end products within renovation that we believe that this is achievable and that's why we're investing in the project. The market is very unique. The tourists that are coming into the market, the structural tailwinds that are supporting growth in Singapore, the value that Singapore has demonstrated as a tourism destination, the fact that we're going to have an arena now that we control that will have some of the best presentation technology in the world, we're very excited about the opportunity there. So we think it will enhance not only the experience you would have at IR2, but the type of guests we have coming across the portfolio because of what it will bring in terms of additional amenities. So, you know, for us, we're looking at a total project return in access to the 20% we talked about.
Robin Farley (Equity Analyst at UBS)
Okay, great. Thank you. Thank you.
OPERATOR
And the next question will be from Stephen Gramling from Morgan Stanley. Steven, your line is live.
Stephen Gramling (Equity Analyst at Morgan Stanley)
Hi. Thank you. And this is maybe digging into some of the questions on Marina Bay Sands. Can you maybe just talk about how the customer concentration may have evolved over time? Are you actually getting more customers? And is the comment about having IR2 being able to attract the highest end customer meaning that you're hitting some kind of threshold where you just don't have enough space for some of these customers or, or is it just that you're getting more play out of, you know, each individual and you haven't seen any
Patrick Dumont (Chairman and Chief Executive Officer)
kind of upper bound on that. Thank you. We went from 132 suites to 770 and we need more capacity. And so we're, we wish we could have IR2 tomorrow. You know, I think, I think for us, you know, there was all, there was a sea change in a way that we presented our products there. You hear us talk about the quality of the design. Our design excellence initiatives on our design team have done outstanding work. The service levels there are extraordinary. Our hospitality team has really stepped up. Our culinary efforts have really improved over time. Our nightlife is really accelerating. And so with the strength in our retail business there, we really have so many amenities that just drive the highest value tourist from the region to Singapore and to our, to our property. And we are able to use a lot more capacity when it becomes available. And so I think for us, we're looking at IR2 as a way to really increase the high end suites that we have, add amenities across the portfolio that we don't have today in terms of entertainment, additional ballrooms, additional culinary, additional sites to be seen. And so for us, this is, this is something that we hope will have a multiplier effect on what we have on offer there. But we need more capacity. And you know, yes, when we made the change, we started bringing in much higher value tourists into Singapore and to our building. But there's more of them. And so, you know, for us, we're looking forward to the opportunity to grow, to take advantage of what we see as the market opportunity.
Stephen Gramling (Equity Analyst at Morgan Stanley)
That's helpful. Maybe one follow up. But just on Macau, I think you mentioned some of the investments going on there. Can you just remind us of some of the timing of some of the renovations and work that you're doing and how you're thinking about where to invest based on what you're seeing in the market now.
Patrick Dumont (Chairman and Chief Executive Officer)
So a couple of things I'll highlight and then I'll turn over to Grant. I think for us, we have a very strong fundamental view for the long term success of Macau. And our company has been built from Sheldon's original vision that investment and scale creates a competitive advantage. And what you see in Macau today is even though the market is hyper competitive in certain segments that we continue to perform in those segments with high quality product and the right service levels and the right marketing. And so for us, we're going to look to invest in our portfolio since we do have scale, we do have rooms, we do have amenities, we do have retail, we do have entertainment, to invest in a way that will give us the maximum opportunity to take advantage of what we see as growth in segments that we're getting the benefit of today. And so I think the next couple of years you'll see us invest in certain areas that we think we've under invested in over the last five years and in an attempt to reposition some of our assets to better address the market today and make us more competitive. Graham, would you like to add anything? Sure.
Grant Chung (CEO and President of SANS China and EVP of Asia Operations)
We can see exceptional results from our new product throughout the last three to four quarters. So part of our market share gain is a function not just of our reinvestment strategies, but also the ramp up of London a grand. So you can see that very clearly in our results. And of course Four Seasons with the grand suites product is also very competitive. Looking forward, we have said, I think in Patrick's opening remarks, we're starting the renovation of the Venetian. This is our flagship property and we are very excited by the upcoming transformation of the Venetian. This will deliver new inventory progressively starting in the second half of this year, the standard suites will start coming back and then progressively work our way towards the high end suites and the villas into 2027 and then the entire project should finish by the end of 27 or early 2028.
Stephen Gramling (Equity Analyst at Morgan Stanley)
All very helpful, thank you.
OPERATOR
Thank you. Thank you. The next question will be from Lizzie Dove from Goldman Sachs.
Lizzie Dove (Equity Analyst at Goldman Sachs)
Lizzie, your line is live. Hi, thanks for taking the question. Looks like the buyback stepped up a little bit this quarter. I'm just curious, you know, especially as you see this continues inflection of Singapore Ebitda going from strength to strength. Is this an appropriate kind of quarterly run rate or how do you think about capital returns more broadly longer term?
Patrick Dumont (Chairman and Chief Executive Officer)
So I think we said for a Long time we see significant value, both LVs and SEL equity and we're going to repurchasing shares. We thought this quarter represented a significant opportunity where levels were. So we were a little more aggressive than maybe you see in prior quarters. But our goal is to continue to repurchase shares in a meaningful way. We think it's an important part of our return of capital strategy and it's something that really creates long term value for our shareholders over time. So, you know, you see the share count reduction over the last couple years. It's very meaningful and we're going to continue to look in that direction as we think about return on capital.
Lizzie Dove (Equity Analyst at Goldman Sachs)
Got it, thanks. And then just as we think about Macau for the rest of the year, you know, we're only a couple of months away from comp. Starting to get a little bit tougher. Obviously you're making progress on, you know, the margin side with that sequential uptick. But just how do you think about your ability to kind of keep improving on that, especially as the comps get a little tougher going forward?
Grant Chung (CEO and President of SANS China and EVP of Asia Operations)
Thanks for the question. First of all, the revenue growth is an important factor. Over time, we expect higher revenues will drive margin improvement. Outside of that, we are investing heavily, as Patrick referenced, in improving our service offerings across our operating capacity, across our salesforce distribution, and also importantly into our hospitality and gaming service levels. So those initiatives do are having an impact on the cost structure and will continue to impact the margin in the near term. At the same time, we are driving revenue growth, we're achieving revenue share gains and over time we intend to grow margin as the revenue levels continue to increase. In terms of the reinvestment levels, we have been able to spend less on reinvestment relative to revenue on a sequential basis. We see at least in our strategy and our ability to optimize stabilization in the reinvestment levels. The market continues to be very competitive, so we have to continue to monitor the dynamics very carefully. But for this quarter, we were able to achieve both revenue growth and sequential stabilization and improvement in our reinvestment strategy.
Lizzie Dove (Equity Analyst at Goldman Sachs)
Thank you.
OPERATOR
Thank you. The next question will be from Chad Baynon from Macquarie. Chad, your line is live.
Chad Baynon (Equity Analyst at Macquarie)
Hi, good afternoon. Thanks for taking my question. Two questions on Macau. One, I just wanted to ask about how the entertainment calendar looks maybe through the rest of the year at Cotai arena and then at some of the smaller venues. And then my second question is more around just the sentiment with the base mass customer. Really good growth in the first quarter as we've talked about a couple Times and particular growth in the Chinese stock market. And just overall what we're able to see kind of consumer sentiment indicators. But are you getting any different sense from your customers since the tensions in the Middle east has started? Or do you think most of the base mask customers?
Patrick Dumont (Chairman and Chief Executive Officer)
Hey Chad, you got a lot going on there. Hey Chad, we'll answer all these questions. You don't have to ask like nine questions in one. Let's just break them into little segments and we'll get through them all, I promise. First on the entertainment calendar and I'll stop there first on the entertainment. So I just want to say one first off, appreciate all the questions. Thank you. One thing about the entertainment calendar, you know, we've been investing in entertainment assets for years in Macau and we feel that entertainment is a great way to drive inbound tourism into Macau from both China and actually from the surrounding region. And we're very happy to have some uptick in tourism from outside of Macau coming in. And we think over time entertainment is an important component of that. We also feel like entertainment is a great way to show off the quality of our assets and the quality of experiences that you can have at our portfolio of properties. And so we've been really focused on not only investing in our entertainment assets. So you saw renovation of the arena that allowed us to have the NBA games, but also other things that we're doing around the portfolio to enhance the customer experience with our entertainment assets, including programming. So I did want to address that just in terms of the physical asset side. And now I'd ask Grant to comment on the calendar.
Grant Chung (CEO and President of SANS China and EVP of Asia Operations)
The calendar was strong in first quarter for us, which helped our performance. We did 11 to 12 shows during the quarter. If you look at the pacing of the calendar, like Patrick said, we will continue to use entertainment content as a driver for the resort visitation and it helps us across every segment of the patron value chain. We do see that the big tour acts have slowed down in the Asian tour stops this year versus the prior immediate two years. However, we have the ability to bring content of different size, different spectatorship because we have access to both the Venetian arena, which is the bigger arena, as well as the mid sized London arena. So we're able to bring a more diverse range of acts and content because we do have the scale of the performance venues which is an attraction for different artists and promoters because being able to access high quality venues at different times of the year is not always easy. So we do have an advantage in a number of acts and artists in the region where we can offer them best in class and different range of performance venues all the way from the Venetian arena to London arena and then also to our performance theaters.
Patrick Dumont (Chairman and Chief Executive Officer)
In regards to the mass gaming, you know, I think you've seen 30% growth year over year in the overall market. I think for us that just speaks to the attractiveness of the assets in the market, liquidity, accessibility and just the overall, you know, growth in demand, which I think has been super helpful for us. Grant, I don't know if there's anything else you want to bring up with.
Grant Chung (CEO and President of SANS China and EVP of Asia Operations)
Some, I think that's it.
Chad Baynon (Equity Analyst at Macquarie)
Okay. And then you were going to ask us about Middle east disruption. Was that your next one? Yeah, just if you think that the Chinese customer can power through in the same way that we're seeing a US customer, given where oil prices are and how that all factors into sentiment.
Grant Chung (CEO and President of SANS China and EVP of Asia Operations)
The way to think about this is the number of options available to the outbound Chinese visitor. If you look at the options available today versus three months ago, six months ago, the reality is destinations that are closer to home are going to gain share in general as a result of the current environment for all sorts of reasons that you're familiar with. So the net effect from a demand standpoint is I think a positive one for both Macau and Singapore because these destinations are going to be more desirable and more preferred during the current geopolitical and also the cost of air travel. All of those factors put together in this environment. Right now, the short haul destinations, especially ones of this appeal in Macau and Singapore are going to be more popular with the Chinese market.
Chad Baynon (Equity Analyst at Macquarie)
Thank you both very helpful. Thanks.
OPERATOR
Thank you. The next question will be from George Choi from Citigroup. George, your line is live.
George Choi (Equity Analyst at Citigroup)
Thank you very much for taking that question. Just a quick one from me. Based on the numbers that you are seeing right now, how do you compare the popularity of Cybest amongst your Macau players versus Singapore? And will you guys introduce more new side bet options in Macau? Thank you very much.
Patrick Dumont (Chairman and Chief Executive Officer)
You are normally the first one to notice our new Cybets. We have introduced some new side wager options in Macau over the past week. In terms of your question about popularity, it remains true that the take up of Cybex, especially as a percentage of total wages is much higher still in Marina Bay Sands than in Macau. That said, the take up of side wages in Macau is increasing the propensity we wager on these side wages. We do see a progressive trend upwards and I think the introduction of these new side wages that we'll be implementing now and in the next few months will further enhance that propensity.
George Choi (Equity Analyst at Citigroup)
Thank you very much for coming. Thank you.
OPERATOR
And the next question will be from Josteff, from Sigma. Joe, you're Linus Live.
Joe
Thank you. For mbs. I wanted to follow up maybe on, you know, the rolling chip volume, just an absolutely huge number in the quarter. I'm wondering, you know, the volatility associated with this. Is it, is it, you know, visitations and what those visitations will do in terms of volume, you know, what is easier for you to program? I guess between the two. And was there a particular. And the follow up is, was there a particular reason maybe in the first quarter that drove higher visitation from this clientele versus, say, other quarters?
Patrick Dumont (Chairman and Chief Executive Officer)
So, you know, the VIP segment is volatile. It can be concentrated, and it depends on who shows up when. And so it is about visitation and it's about bringing in the highest value patrons we have who want to be on a rolling program into the building. And so the great news is we have long standing relationships with historical customers. We have new customers coming into the building and they love our service, they love the hotel suites they get, they love the food, the entertainment, they love going to the retail. So it's really a total experience proposition. And then they show up and they play. And so for us, it's about having the right amenities to satisfy these very discerning customers and just getting them into the building. Got it.
Joe
Thank you.
Patrick Dumont (Chairman and Chief Executive Officer)
Thanks, Jill.
OPERATOR
Thank you. The next question will be from Trey Bowers from Wells Fargo. Trey, your line is live.
Trey Bowers (Equity Analyst at Wells Fargo)
Hey guys, thanks for the question. I guess just one. On CapEx, the maintenance CapEx and the SEL level, CapEx in the slide deck moved up for the next couple years. Is that maybe just one? You guys are doing so well, so why not kind of reinvest a little more aggressively? And then two, is it a pull forward concession? Just curious, you know, on those two numbers, or is it also some of the things you guys referenced around, like Venetian Rehab?
Patrick Dumont (Chairman and Chief Executive Officer)
Thanks. So one of the industry greats a long time ago said that depreciation is real in our business and we have to spend money to maintain our positioning and to grow. And so we are doing a full portfolio review to make sure that we're deploying capital in the most efficient way and the highest return projects to generate cash flow growth. And so this increase in Capex is based on our expectations that if we invest more, we will grow more.
Trey Bowers (Equity Analyst at Wells Fargo)
Perfect. Thank you.
Patrick Dumont (Chairman and Chief Executive Officer)
And one other question. The promotional activity in Macau looks like it ticked down a little bit sequentially. Could we kind of assume that you guys really ramped it in Q4. It's higher year over year again in Q1, but it's getting better as we look forward. Is just kind of the, the stickiness you guys are seeing from early promotional activity demanding less of it as we go forward and should that be one of the factors that's helping out this drive towards that 700 number?
Trey Bowers (Equity Analyst at Wells Fargo)
Thanks a lot guys.
Grant Chung (CEO and President of SANS China and EVP of Asia Operations)
We've been able to optimize some of our programs having started to change our reinvestment programming and approach since the middle of 2025. So this is a natural progression. As we change our programs, we assess what worked, what was less effective and great credit to the team. Were able to achieve good optimization in this quarter whilst continue to gain market share and grow revenue. We are also able to optimize the reinvestment level because we'd be more successful in leveraging our product advantage. So we've been able to ramp up Londoner grand especially and that has helped us tremendously in, especially in the core premium mass mid tier segments in growing the customer base there. And that speaks to the capex and the upgrading of product referenced by Patrick that as we review the portfolio there are going to be other significant opportunities for us to invest for growth. And at the same time as growing it also allows us to be more targeted and disciplined in reinvestment as these products come online.
Trey Bowers (Equity Analyst at Wells Fargo)
Great, thanks for the time.
OPERATOR
Thank you. The next question will be from Steve Wyczynski from Stifel. Steve, your line is live.
Steve Wyczynski (Equity Analyst at Stifel)
Yeah. Hey guys. So Patrick, sorry, I'm going to ask another question about the 700 getting to 700 million a quarter in Macau. You know, so obviously there's a lot of promotional activity taking place right now in the market. So you know, I guess the question is, you know, to get to 700 million eventually in EBITDA, does that assume your competitors, you know, pull back so called aggressively on promotions or saying that differently, does that assume no more of a normalized promotional environment from I guess not only yourselves but also your competitors as well?
Patrick Dumont (Chairman and Chief Executive Officer)
No, actually we're sort of thinking about that in the context of current conditions. It's more about if you look at the growth that we experienced in Q1, you know, it's a very competitive market but I think the market is growing and I think we're also helping to grow the market with the high quality assets that we have. So for us when we think about 700 million, it's about continuing to invest, having the right marketing programs, utilizing our assets. More efficiently. It'd be helpful if the market grows a little bit. You know, the additional growth in the market and expansion of GGR market wide is helpful, but we think that it's in the context of the current conditions. Okay, gotcha.
Steve Wyczynski (Equity Analyst at Stifel)
And then kind of sticking with that. Patrick, you know, look, I know you guys don't give guidance, but is it, you know, based on what you just said there, is it, is it kind of fair, is it fair to think that this sort of run rate of, let's call it, you know, 600 million a quarter Macao is probably the right way to think about the market for the foreseeable future until that, you know, until that base mass business really does return.
Patrick Dumont (Chairman and Chief Executive Officer)
Yeah, I think, I think the one thing I just want to be careful about is there is seasonality in our business. I know you know that. And second quarter is typically our softest. And just sequential comparisons between Q1 and Q2, given that we have Chinese New Year in Q1 are always tough and sometimes not that helpful. But just directionally, you know, we'd like to believe that we're in a really solid place, you know, as we continue to grow our business and make the right moves into, in terms of marketing, in terms of utilizing our assets. But that's kind of how we think about it. Okay, gotcha.
Steve Wyczynski (Equity Analyst at Stifel)
Thanks so much. Appreciate it.
OPERATOR
Thank you. The next question will be from David Katz from Jefferies. David, your line is live.
David Katz (Equity Analyst at Jefferies)
Hi. Afternoon. Thanks for taking my question. I appreciate it. Can we just talk about the Venetian a little bit and the degree to which, you know, again, I know you don't give guidance, but the degree to which we should be factoring in some, you know, disruption as you go through that room renovation and you know, any qualitative perspective would be helpful. Thank you.
Grant Chung (CEO and President of SANS China and EVP of Asia Operations)
Thank you for the question. No, we don't expect meaningful disruption impact. We'll be balancing the out of inventory with the business needs and we are able to redistribute the demand throughout the rest of the portfolio. And at the same time, new rooms will continuously be coming back to the active inventory starting from third quarter. So even as total number of keys will be reduced modestly during this period, we are going to be benefiting from brand new suites coming online over the coming quarters, especially when the multi bay suites come back online towards the back end of 2027.
David Katz (Equity Analyst at Jefferies)
Understood. And as my follow up, I know we've touched on this just a bit, but you know, maintenance capex we usually think about in the context of, you know, non discretionary versus Projects that you know, can be decided upon and, and moved around. Understood. Understand every company's perspective on it is different. But just noticing in the deck, you know that should we think about that 500 number as you know, something that, that is non discretionary and how did that come about?
Grant Chung (CEO and President of SANS China and EVP of Asia Operations)
First off, we believe that it is necessary to maintain our business. So it's split between Mirror Bay Sands and Sands China. But we just want to be realistic about what we believe we need to spend going forward to ensure our buildings are kept in the best possible condition to maximize our cash flow. And so we don't view this as optional. We view this as something that's a responsible move to take care of our buildings into the future. Appreciate it.
OPERATOR
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And the next question will be from John Decree from cbre.
John Decree
John, your line is live. Hi everyone. Thanks for taking the question. I know we've talked about, covered the topic of OPEX in Macau a little bit, but maybe just to round it out, if you could provide a little cover, maybe coming at it from a modeling angle, are we expecting kind of the investment in service you've talked about to kind of grow in line with revenue? Are these going to be kind of fixed cost, people coming online, more staff and will happen regardless of which way revenue goes or is it kind of something that you'll kind of time throughout the year as revenue increases at different paces, you'll add service levels. Just trying to get a sense of, you know, how much fixed costs are maybe coming in this year versus variable depending on revenue.
Patrick Dumont (Chairman and Chief Executive Officer)
These are hires that are designed to increase and enhance the service levels of our buildings. So ideally as we grow revenue, because we're bringing in higher value patrons, we get some scale or some operating leverage across these fixed costs. But they're primarily payroll. We're adding people in certain areas to service certain patron tiers to enhance their experience and make sure that we're at the highest standards for service. And so this hiring in our mind is actually beneficial because while we have to hire and train these people and add them to our team so that we can accomplish our goals and providing leading hospitality in the market, combined with the investments and the renovations that we're doing, this will put us in a better position to grow because you need the people and you need the physical product in order to provide the patron experience that allows you to differentiate and draw the highest value customers into your buildings. And so this is an investment in the future.
John Decree
Thanks. Thanks, Patrick. Maybe just a quick follow up on that. To the new hires And I apologize. A little granular, but kind of on a rolling basis going forward, or have they already been hired? Yeah, I guess. When should we think about the lion's share of the additional staff coming online?
Patrick Dumont (Chairman and Chief Executive Officer)
A significant number of actually are actually in the OPEX now. So, you know, we have people joining our staff. And so actually there's some of that's actually in the margin today, some of the additional payroll associated with the service enhancement, and it will continue to be added over the next couple quarters. Understood. Thank you so much.
OPERATOR
Thank you. That concludes today's Q and A session, and it also concludes today's conference call. You may disconnect your lines at this time and have a wonderful day. We thank you for your participation.
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